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Us 18, U.s. 10, Niger 8, North Africa 6, United States 5, Nigeria 5, Europe 4, Mauritania 4, Timbuktu 3, Rogoff 3, Mr. Ma 3, United 3, Alaska 3, Libya 3, Bingaman 2, Mali 2, Li Jingtian 2, Li 2, China 2, Lng 2,
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  CSPAN    U.S. Senate    News/Business.  

    February 5, 2013
    5:00 - 8:00pm EST  

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stick to the defense of deadly hostage rates that stem from this necessity to enlist the health and control in the border. the mission cannot succeed without the assistance of algeria, period. and they are different on the
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british initially. so the french fear that they have economic interests and intervene in northern mali. they feel that the control of the interests but also that it would destabilize far more important allies as a major concern in the capital's. they have the transborder militancy has exacerbated by the difficult space transitions and north africa and by the state fragility in north africa. the risks for the spillover our real. it is fast lee becoming a smuggling headquarters are
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between libya and there's a huge concern within the of their government in the interviews that geneva is becoming for now a corridor for the dealers and it's becoming frequent as well as the case on january 17th when the security forces arrested militant groups in the confiscated grenades and rifles it could be more than a transit route. they are currently fighting alongside mog -- fathi hill magreb. flash to the other members such as the parliamentarians are concerned that to nisha, that the war in mali might become a
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recruitment for the disgruntled islamists and the hard core salafist is and there's also general concern of backlash against the country's supportive of the french incursion. so, so far, the cross border links between the militants have been tenuous so far. they are more on the greed and criminality than ideology but that could change. elsewhere in north africa it is that jihad gangsters and the rebels and forces destabilize the countries that are transitioning and that have very weak security institutions. the authorities today are struggling to reform the dysfunctional security services. they have the capacity is to counter the threats.
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they have a strong security forces and in high alert since the french intervention. we know that several of the moroccans have joined the armed groups and mali. about 17 of them with other actors. the country is also worried about stability in western sahara so that is north africa. then there's the problem of the spillover into west africa with the territory in northwest algeria. the stability is complex and they run deep and we can talk more about those later on and specifically in western and
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northwestern africa mauritania is generally considered by the e.u. in the less problematic state. the number of youth recruited remains very small and the attacks carried on the soil the capabilities are extremely limited and its affiliated networks are disorganized and weak today. it pursues the and imprisonment of a violent extremists as disrupting the growth of the militant movement. but like other countries are faced with a challenge of ensuring control of the borders. i mean, it shows ilana border on
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the 2,400 kilometers. it is even more than algeria which shares 1300 kilometers border. he. it's all forms of smuggling and also as i said, slipping in the northern mali to mauritania and he. the aggressive approach to fight the violent extremists and it's definitely more so than mali. an example because it has equipped its airports with i.t. systems. it has installed passport readers and it's about 27 posts to control its borders with help , and it has trained hundreds of the police officers. the government has also undertaken several initiatives
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to combat extremism. in addition to the military component, they have also introduced more anti-terrorism legislation and also the government has tried to delegitimize the ideological justification for violent radicalism as well as they have engaged each prisoner in a dialogue with credible islamist scholars and clerics. we've sent a good context and the take away we face today in the wake of the success, a situation with extraordinarily complexity, historically, so
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shall become ethnically, geopolitically across the region and given this complexity looking more forward than backward and watch the data over what the u.s. should be engaged or involved in this the opportunities or lack thereof and the timing of the french operations and all those issues and about refueling tankers and who is paying for them within. looking more forward where do we go from here? what are some policy recommendations, prescriptions or at least guideposts for the pathway for word. etsy.com not going to -- i am no longer working in the policy, so obviously i can't make any policy decisions, but i frankly
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truly believe this is when to move into insurgency war and its of to the islamists to decide how they want to play this. one thing that happened in the french intervention that required some initial planning but i don't think that was factored in because the reaction was so quick is that what i have watched as the pouring of the refugees into neighboring countries. what i am hearing from a lot of the refugee camps especially on the side as a whole bunch have blended into the populations in those refugee camps. there is no vetting whatsoever. this is going to create some issues. the other problem is the relationships they have
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regionally. correctly as was said is the pounds were taken over very quickly. if you go back and look from june to the present when the french intervenes, the islamists were basically digging holes and trenching everything outside of the towns. i kept hearing over and over again from friends that i have in timbuktu will say they are 60 or 70 kilometers north and it's got to be digging the hole and obviously preparing for something. the discussion of the intervention force has been ongoing so they knew something was coming their way. they are well pressed. i think what we need to do is step and i am sure that it's happening. help the french think about how to deal with an insurgency. the point is also we can't leave
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the intervention to its own devices because anybody who's ever dealt with claim counterinsurgency it's not easy, is very complex and what we have is in these intervention forces you have the nigerians who have had a history, not a good history and their own country for the san things with the champions. now you put them in an intervention force and god forbid what you have is your first suicide bomber and intervention force applied as a heavy-handed response what you are going to start doing is you are going to take these ethnic tensions that are already there and you are going to polarize them even more and that is going to play in a big way into the hands of the islamists who already have been doing of the recruiting and the preparation of all these things that go on with it but so that's something we need to address in the long
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term. how we take these problems and untangle that with the french and the germans and everybody. the other thing is also the large footprints he paced the the to place a large print in the spring to be the cost for the islamists to react, especially if there is a heavy handedness right at the onset and the social tensions start to flare-up. it's for other parts to intervene. i know some of you or all of you have showed the minute the french intervene uzi on youtube messages coming in from the radical elements of syria. interestingly enough i found
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eighth tweet i found very interesting and this was a month and a half ago that came from an individual in indonesia. they would hope that there would be all of the support that they need from their brethren are not the world this is already filtered like a cancer everywhere and what you have is a set of retention for the jihadis in different parts of the world. having the the long term present and clear. the thing to do is to just be aware. there is the deed of the newark of instability that starts at libya embraces what you just
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said. in a significant way it connects to northern nigeria. the second thing is not to panic after not panicking the question then becomes what do you do. don't send in the marines don't put food on the ground. when we do that in iraq and afghanistan doesn't work out very well. then there is what we can do. we do things very well. the area of reconnaissance, internet reconnaissance, provision of aid to people who traditionally have played the roles in the cases of mali, the
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canadians and others in terms of rebuilding. but the specific task that we need to seriously engage as a country right now that we are not, first of all, we have to help that to government integrate. there isn't a national debate on that question but it is an important one. in tunisia as you follow mentioned the support of the regime and need to go away but they need to be reconstituted in such a way that they serve a democratic state. we need to engage that question if we determine that that is in our interests. we have a failed state. it isn't the subject of a grand
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policy debate in the country because it seems too far away. but don't pay attention to the problem long enough and see what happens. it will be much less costly for us now to invest in a modest way to reconstitute the bases -- yellowing paper ongoing system to get intimate questions with poverty iain dhaka, and then of course the call continuing in this are a we have to then think about nigeria, northern nigeria. of the are to drive and for today's juan him to drive is
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another. there's only four days of traveling and its very, very important for us analysts to stop thinking from the national perspective s and start thinking from the regional perspectives. that is the only way that we are going to comprehend the dynamics appear of the challenges that are in front of us and we are not doing that. we need to do it and i'm glad that. the atlantic council are trying to think about this in a regional perspective but until we do that now when it is less costly and in the environment with political instability, organized crime and then talks a lot about the focus of the national community much beyond the institutional capacity building and strengthening the cooperation. in mali the risks -- i hear a
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lot of talk and, the problem is not just you cannot just rely on the self-proclaimed representatives of all of the groups in northern mali. they are a minority. so one component among many. so any inclusive political solution should include but also other ethnic groups whether it be me the majority obviously or other ethnic actors. it has to be all inclusive. number two, there is the risk that we try to put nicely. it's exactly what others are
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waiting for them. they are just waiting to strike, for the opportunity which, and there are risks, right? we know based on the behavior of the forces especially with white skinned arabs. we know the african forces in which report they are by themselves these are one of the most feared for years and who they rely very heavily on them which is good because its, you know, it is the same climate so it's very effective. the problem is the behavior on the ground doesn't elicit much optimism in terms of abuse of human rights. there's a huge risk that might happen and as it was said again nicely, god forbid this one
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suicide attack that heavy-handed approach. look at nigeria what. the behavior doesn't elicit much opportunity. it's the heavy-handed way approach of the nigerian forces that have fueled the insurgency in northern algeria. there is little talk about it but that's the blame, too and that's important. so the attention i guess got the most to watch and the french obviously cannot wash their hands of them. it's their responsibility to deliver it and they have to make sure that that does not happen. for the african force we are talking about, it's going to take 18 months to train. so they are sending 200 trainers and they will start in march and
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that is when to take 18 months. so that is the long term process. so, what can the u.s. and the e.u. to? we have too many structures and there is no interoperable the and they send in their own folks and trainers but from what i hear from the folks on the ground is that they do not work together. so that is something that needs to be looked into. >> there is something that i forgot to mention which your comment just provoked me to remember. i forgot to mention the important role of algeria. nothing is going to happen without algeria. paul kennedy at yale university for this important article in foreign affairs called the petrostate, and he argued that
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in every region of the world there is a pivotal state. unless you work with that pivotal state and the ancillary states, they will not function properly. and his argument was that unless nigeria with his foot at allstate and east africa arguably kenya and ugonda are the pivotal states and south africa itself. but in northern africa -- is algeria. algeria has the most capable army, the most capable intelligence services in the region. so as a part of this policy discussion we keep mentioning the united states, we keep mentioning the european union we really need to mention algeria. we need to have their her participation as we move forward. >> they wouldn't put boots on the ground. that we know. that's not even a matter of subject to talk.
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they aren't trying to get them to put boots on the ground. what they've been asking them to do is read the introduction because there are others that go in who and that is the request number two what. they are sitting on $200 billion, so there is an expectation that algeria would contribute the most were to the fund and that is needed to rebuild or build the economy in northern mali booknotes on the ground algeria as we believe it is going to happen. >> i think that ricardo -- the necessity of engaging them i think that in engaging them we have to also be looking at it with a very clear lines there can be no solution without them when. on the other hand, pursuing that engagement does not blind us to
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the fact they've tried to have it both ways for a long time and that is an old habit that is quite to be difficult for some of them to break so that is going to be the tension. the analogies are imperfect but if we end up in a counter insurgency will the scenario we have here a pakistan to afghanistan that both part of the solution but it also has elements of a part of the problem and how we resolve that is going to be critical who. >> i would say there is one more element to the southern part of algeria that we need to kind of keep in mind. them to get an algerian passport. all they had to do is ask for it and there is a free flow of trade with going through the borders and what you have is the
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economies are essentially tied together. what you also have is the possibility for years and years there are members of you have corrupt cops anywhere in the world to have the members potentially on be algeria sidespin as you are trying to put pressure to control this, you are also affecting something that's been around for a very long time that's going to affect some of the players. he's very smart and the one sense because he's made a lot of money but he's got relationships in the areas he is flush with money, he has great connections, understands the tribal dynamics in the region and can actually pay people to do stuff. so, this is one of the complexities that makes it
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difficult essentially no only to project but to actually handle that will produce something in the long run it. it's hard to control these borders, too. we have a border problem with mexico and with all our technology and everything we do, we still have -- could you imagine now you are trying to control them all at the same time that is going to be a difficult thing to do. >> let me invite the panelists to address it and i eluted to this in my brief introduction on one excuse or part of all the extra constitutional measures the fact that they didn't occur in a vacuum. all of a rush of thinking and
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platitude profound problems, soldiers not being paid that are working with the radicals that paid better and more regularly. there was the question of involvement in but individuals it's well known in interpol and other law enforcement those that were involved as business partners with the people was illicit extremists because they are working together and everyone is happy together. >> before you fallen to a saturation of the insurgency their political legitimacy, the counterinsurgency without
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political legitimacy so how did you get the sequencing and how you get back to that of the discussion that i think with the emphasis on raising funds and military operation training etc. how of do we get the political track back to the? >> the fundamental problem that you have with the military leaders that have decided to seize power and there'll longer interested in relinquishing it. but at the same time, they don't have the power to construct the state. so how can you move forward klaxon the fundamental question would be the subordination of the military officers to the civilian officials but you do
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not have a cohort of civilian officials that can rise. so to me it seems before we can get to the question of the elections and whether there are civilian leaders that can rise to the formal government, we somehow need to inform those that have engaged the have to get out of business. you have to make up your mind one way or another. you either get out of business or before a state. they haven't gone out of business and they can't former estate. it's not like 1952 in egypt where he sees the state and he forms the government. they see the state but they can't form the government. so it is a real practical complications for us and i don't
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know how we solve the problem. if you have any insight. >> not truly how to solve the problem, but actually to also may be spotlight a little bit of the complexities. when i was there in 2000, 2003, when it happened in 2002, i was talking to a general who said something really interesting as it relates to mali, she said you know, when they had the coup there was an artery that went from the port and was like a spinal column that went through the middle of the country all the way up north and actually that spinal column said it was the landmark states that were up north. so what happened is when they provided the company all of a sudden this economic push that was going north and feeding the
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states was of a sudden under stream and so it took several years for this column to shift over into ghana and. while this was happening, as you approach it in 2004, 2005, this is where you start seeing the narcotrafficking expand. this is where you start seeing this illicit trade expanding in the region. so you have in these landmark countries that are starving for finances and these local governments are looking for ways to continue to make money. so, correctly what we have is an integration of certain members within the states that were involved in the illicit trade and so when you look at from 2000 to 2007 during the individuals from the military who was killed and assassinated
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in june of 2009 or the colonel those were the names for comment names that were working with the arab and they were making money these are the same guys that were involved in the negotiations of a hostage releases and some of that money was faltering back which makes the complexity and north and south relationships of financial organized crime of all and today we see some of that of the continues to fester. it makes it difficult on how you build coming and going forward we just need to get to a level where the government is at least in the position to negotiate with the north and find some solution in the long run that needs to be followed by the
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money that we find those grievances and make the environment a little bit better so that we don't get another bubble to evaporate on what you said, the fundamental immediate problem if you couple that the military officials are also engaged in contraband whether it's narcotics or cigarettes or the others so that. it then becomes, founded the would identified to move the seat forward it has to move forward, the state has to be recreated so that was empowered to negotiate. it is a con founding challenge.
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>> it is food for thought. i don't have a smoking gun. i just have bits and pieces of this. when they moved south it was very rapid and is surprised a lot of people today there were pieces i need to think about. maybe i was going out on a wim but there was agreement between the north and south, so controlling the number i was getting a lot of feedback from timbuktu saying there were flights of the folks from timbuktu from the high council were up having discussions. to suddenly have this islamist
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overnight now moving through and they are going quickly. in the north don't care about the secular and the guys in the south don't care about the secular. we are all good muslims so we just follow we push them aside and we pushed north and south. they're very quick and the drexel plan. from all of the talking that was coming up from the north, the south was indeed discussions with the north this may play out as we go further and try to put
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this new government to gather. >> this is the guy that had relied on in negotiating. there's a political deed but i don't think that it's proof that they're planning to go all the way. to go back to the point that you raise. there are differences between them. there's the political grievances and willing to take on the organized crime we don't have the military capability and that
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is mali for us, that is the worst of all. it needs assistance because it is a matter of political will at the end and to keep devotee can be addressed. the military can be in power. they don't have the political will obviously organized crime etc. that are incapable in the mauritania or willing and capable at this stage and. the legitimacy that is issue is absolutely right.
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they've known the quantity and they don't have much respect, nevertheless the president talks about the parliament that meant two days ago and the equity on the timeline that there might be an election in july as a date. as for the military, they have lost a lot of support. number two, they have french now and the possibility to exert pressure to get the military out of business. so there is a window and which you can power the institutions at the expense of the military. but unless there is a political solution they are not going anywhere. >> i just want to add we in
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america are obsessed with the elections, they are a waste of time. what's the point of having an election? we need a jefferson and madison and washington, a cohort of leadership. what is the point of having an election so some fool will get elected and in charge and she's not really leading nicoe were to? there is no sense of political coherence among the elite about the state is going to be? look at egypt. what's the point of having any election if you don't have an elite coherence about the future of the state is going to be. you have an election to make things worse.
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you clearly have an election after you have a certain degree of elite coherence about the future to division of the state is going to be. to have an election until you have a cohort of civilian leaders who are united in articulating that there is going to be the state doesn't make sense. just going to throw someone up there. who are the leading whacks it's like having an army without having troops. you have to have a sense of coherence with the state is going to be about, and it's not there yet. you have to think logically about these things. so let's stop with the election. they are only valuable at a certain moment in time after you have a cohort of leaders who
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agree that there is going to be a state. you don't have that yet. that's my point of view anyway. >> thank you for going out on a limb. i guess i voted for the last time before we go to questions another thing, elephant in the room thought having a brief comment this week it was reported in the media the agreement to establish the base for the unmanned and vehicles for the purposes any comments or
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reactions on that if interested. >> you always hear the same argument as if we set up isr and things don't get the wrong group of folks then you highlight the folks and whether it is to be our demand or whether they put the place. it becomes a lightning rod for the folks to come into the area. having said that, obviously you need an area to look at because we are talking do the talking about the geographic so it is a very large massive area to cover. i don't know if there is a right or wrong to this but there are certain things that need to be factored in. very quickly if we don't think about this. anybody that has been there, you
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get one american over there and everybody knows about it. it's not a big place. so when you start talking about putting two or 300 on the ground that is going to garner some attention. >> i have nothing to add to that. >> a reminder to the audience, give everyone a chance to limit to a question and please identify yourself and we will start in the front row please. >> he directly reported to the fact that.
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>> but in the minds of the regime and what has unfolded nobody went back and said the chaos is presently obtained in bolivia. does that have to be addressed to get the situation in hand, and if i could ask a similar question, people pointed to the fact that if we looked at the subregion that appeared to be in somewhat better shape than other places despite the factors of the neighborhood is there any way that we could involve a policy that led to immunize niger from getting infected in the same kind of disease that obtains number why nigeria or number mali? >> thank you very much.
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>> thank you very much. i am an independent analyst here in washington. the problem is the most complex that i have come across an 40 years so it is hard to deal with it now, and one of the things that are right on the money but i disagree with, but i think one that has been left has been talked about the first question is why should the u.s. really cared? why should americans care. that it is the issue that has been addressed. i will say there are all kinds of reasons why they should care
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from their involvement, and as he said it isn't dealt with it will come back and bite of the u.s.. so i would like the panels to talk about and make the case why it should be involved because i don't think that that has been made enough. >> okay. forgive me if there are others, but there is one in their room and i think that we owe it to him. wait for the microphone. >> i would like to thank the incredible panel. to hear the things that have been talked about today. elected to the mayor in her mali ibm u.s. educated returned back
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home. the question that i would like to ask would be directed to ricardo even though it would be based on peter's introduction, that mali was a failed state. that the issue was a leadership issue, not an ethnic or religious issue, but primarily a leadership issue. thank you four add dressing that. now, you talk about leadership. why should we organize elections? because democracy is a value that should be enforced, promoted and supported everywhere. even in mali. there is an emerging class of leaders were what but they are unheard and suppressed by that leadership will. elections should be organized
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because he will have malians to identify. to answer the question of what should we do next before the election were there as we did in 1991 to bring malians what and the lowercase integration plan into mali as it has been done before. so it is time that we address this instead of just pointing out because it is impractical to have a dramatic state given net that the territory is no single what region with over 26 percent
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so, my question to you what do we do today in the light of what i said in building of the national conference how we build that cohort of leaders. >> before we take that round to begin with questions of libya. >> the fact to maybe try to address the issues comprehensively starting with the mayor because i am entirely in support of what your objectives are. in fact i am in favor of the elections. the question is when. tied to that challenge that we
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are confronting is the observations to were made. if indeed what we have is a convergence of interest between people in the north and people in the southern military establishment that are engaged in contraband whether it is more complex -- narcotics or cigarettes is what we have the important economic link that would stand in the way of creating a civilian government. so then this is where the political economy of the reconstruction of the mali state then becomes the next challenge. because if there is an incentive for the southern military officers and the northern rebels to remain linked because of that contraband issue, we have to
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overcome that in order for the civilian leaders like yourself to come to the floor and then reconstitute the state. if that is the case, then our challenges are considerably more complex than i thought it would be at the beginning of this conversation. this conversation has value because now we are really articulating a particular challenge. the political economy that underlies the future reconstitution of the state. going to your question about niger, it has been vintage until the present moment because there is not the degree of animosity and niger between the of the people and the other ethnic groups within mali, and furthermore, the new president of mali specifically designated
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-- of niger demonstrated someone from the community which then provided for the prime minister. there's a different politics operating in the history with regard to the degree of animosity between those and power and those residing elsewhere in the country that may belong to the community. that is not exported because of the different history, and now has been understand the different political economy that underlies the state. so then getting back to what you asked, what is it that we need to do? i want to reemphasize this because i've been saying this for about two years, we first have to recognize that this is a regional question that has to be at rest. it is a question that does not
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engage in the deployment of the u.s. troops because of the blow back that is involved in the insurgency. but it does involve a level of intelligent engagement using the resources appropriate to the resolution of the problem, which is the provision of that reform of the ball intelligence gathering services, the provision of the y is investments to the constitution of the mali, not just mali, but niger in that missile subordination of the military officers or the militia to the central army. those are the object is that we need to engage. only if we do every, and i think that we should agree that there is an emerging crisis that is taking place now. >> i would point out that in early 2000 there was the
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insurgents and it was in fact he brokered the deal to enhance that insurgency. my question remains what can we do to help immunize niger because the insanity that is in that region the last thing we want to see is for it to come across the border in this body of politics. >> first is what is related and ms. mali and we going to the tensions. is that what happens obviously and northern mali with that revenge on them is going to have repercussions elsewhere so that is extending and is crucial.
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member to become the have done a better job though more in terms of the cooperation that is addressing the grievances. up until now, they obviously do not feel that they have benefited from the resources coming from uranium, that has not been after a stop to this point. so, even there is discontent that must be addressed. you cannot just rely on coopting and appointing a prime minister which is crucial obviously, but that is not enough. so there is discontent. niger has benefited from the external aid. we know that the united states and europe, that is the zone of protection, mauritania and niger and the resistance to build the security forces and in terms of the financial aid. so, that if -- more of that
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needs to be done. we go back to what i said, the more or less have been willing but incapable. so that is why the europeans and the americans are concentrated on niger in, mauritania and i will leave it here. >> one other dimension that i have had, there is the chief complaint on the mind that the dust is getting into the waterways and a lot of kids are affected by it. succumb having grievances there, but you are spot on in terms of why do we care in their region, that is a great question. triet its current to metastasize tree we are seeing growth in the
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energy sector through oil and gas you are always finding new fields. ghana is an example in the industry that keeps booming. there are other places around west africa and in this region there's a potential for the oil and gas of in certain quadrants between the borders of mali and more tammie as a you have companies, western companies that are out looking for this. exxonmobil, vp, offshore, all these companies are out there so you have the westerners operating in the region, and if you start seeing the tax like the one that we saw in algeria, that is when to cause some impact economically you are going to see that. the other thing is there is -- i will use france as an example from the four ret base you have 10% of the french population is of some percentage in north africa whether it is first, second, third, fourth generation. you have individuals from within
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these groups that are sympathetic to the cause or the islamist cause in the region. if you keep this unchecked what you have is a migration flow of the attacks in europe. people with dual citizenship is, whether they are carrying a french passport or whatever passport. so you know, you've got to look at this in a holistic way. also, if we continue to allow this black market to fester, that's going to continue. a good chunk of cocaine going into europe is coming through the plains and keeps growing and growing. so there are multiple factors we can go on and on but we have to look at this holistically. the other thing is i always used the balloon theories. we've done a wonderful job of going after the al qaeda
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leadership, and we have done a great job in some of the old -- we've ticked off one by one and we've taken them off. there is a new generation and this isn't like a central but when you squeeze the balloon is going to come back in the path of resistance. in chehab for might think back in april of last year, there was an interesting that that came out. it was all of west africa, north africa and then the map of mali and the metal which was all black with these great big black heroes during the pension board northern africa into nigeria across the plains. there is a plan out there that they want to destabilize and control the region and kind of make mali as a beachhead to expand in the region and that is going to have all kinds of consequences that we need to pay attention to. so, just putting it in the bigger picture, you know, it is important and we can't let it go
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.. a sum for $5 million euro. there was a chase to chase them across the desert. we worked on a program and it was successful because we did very little in terms of working with mali, with chad, just to give them, you know, a little bit of intelligence and the --
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whatnot. they were able to chase them across the sahara where he was captured by the northern chad and played a role. having said that, then what we have is things were happening, you know, circa 2004, 2005. there was discussions on counterterrorism programs, the east africa, the counterterrorism initiative was expanding in in the horn of africa. folks were going, hey, it worked well over here. and we're doing programs why can't we do something a little bit more robust. that's the genesis that got us to the -- the operation enduring fleam and the transcounterterrorism program. as we started looking the united states was looking at this host
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they cover 11 countries unless that changed. i'm not sure. we have military folks here. it's about 10 or eleven countries. so the program was actually to get the countries to try to tackle the threat that was potentially going to grow or was growing in the region. we did a lot of training. mali was a recipient of the training. however, we have to start off with the basics and kind of build from there. and it was an integration of trying to get mali to work regionally. now we were looking ahead and taking a forward step in this. nobody can -- there's no military in the world no matter what -- you can't stop people from doing whatever they want to do in the sovereign country. so it's not a mistake that the united states made. we were in the moving in the positive distribution from the dod standpoint. what they do is what they do. people are people.
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and there's no -- i don't think there should be any responsibility pointing the finger having done anything wrong. we were doing something positive in the region. we need continue from here. i think the current crisis highlights that we need to expand at to certain level to get it to a place where at least a host countries can handle things properly. because when you look for a successful coin in the long-term. you want to be able to finally walk away from a country and allow it to handle its own issues and the threats that may potentially come back in to it. >> if i can add, there were a lot of good reasons for the coup from a soldier's perspective. i'm not a military analysts. i'm a political scientist. but as told you about ante-dotely in my e-mails that
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machine gun was not not well stabilized on the pickup truck and he had to retreat. not being an military analyst and applauding what the united states tried do in terms of training folks in mali and elsewhere, you do a cursory examination of the equipment that was available to the mali army, i didn't have a chance to look at rifle and machine guns. but i just took a look, you know, online what they have in terms of aircraft. and having any helicopters. none. they had two or tree three fighter jets. all about thirty years old. they had maybe six or seven capabilities with sing wing aircraft. again, there were things that were thirty five years old.
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so from the perspective i have a reason to have a coup. you're sending me out there in the army. i don't have adequate equipment, i'm not adequate
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timeout. those are your own people within your own borders. because what you see is in 2006 going forward, the mali military
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is never engaged directly with the guys coming across the border. they lowed that to fester in the north. the touareg themselves engage three times and took heavy losses. and so again, it begs of question, you know, why do we miss that? but lessons learned moving forward. >> yeah. i apologize to the audience because of the collaboration with our television partners we're running down to the wire here. i think we have time for one more question. right there. you. >> thank you. [inaudible] with the woodrow wilson center. [inaudible] it seems to me that listening to you -- [inaudible] i'm not saying that you are
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wrong. i'm not advocating putting boots on the ground or anything of the sort. what i hear is is we have to continue to -- trying to do with initiative with the previous initiatives that i can never keep straight in my mind. we talk about the region. we never looked at these that center to countries and so on. and what we see from the outcome and i'm not pointing fingers -- i can't see you. not been very good, you know, the country is bleeding and afraid to put the chaos for the time being. >> sure. >> but the country is still bleeding. so why should we expect that more of the same will make a difference how do we need to
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change we have been doing more to the point so the time is more effective? i'm not sure that -- [inaudible] i ever heard anything any different. >> sure. i only have a couple of seconds. an excellent question. i think we need to look at the program and see where it failed and where it actually did very well and try to address, you know, those point was failure and try to fix it. we can't divorce it. we can't walk away and say well, you know, it completely fails. we're not going do anything. we have to look at it holistically and fry to make it better. just from going forward and we can talk offline over what the things can be. >> thank thank you very much, rud rud. thank you for joining us. please join me in thanking our panel lists -- panelists. [applause]
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here's a look at the prime time schedule starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern. president obama unveiling the plan for automatic spending cuts known as sequestration scheduled to begin on march 1st. on c-span2 remarkings from eric cantor on immigration and education issues. c-span3 nancy pelosi marks the 20th anniversary of the family and medical leave act signed in to law in 1993 by president clinton. >> you're watching c-span2 with politics and public affairs. on weeknights watch key public policy events and every weekend the non-fiction authors and books on booktv. you can see past programs and get our schedule at our website. and you can join in the conversation on social media sites. at the recent world economic forum in switzerland
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participates discuss china's economic future and the policy changes needed to move the country forward. ists including -- analysts included economic professors from china and the u.s. the role world economic forum is anen yule event this is about an hour. [inaudible conversations] welcome from inside economic forum. the party congress has said the very ambition goal for all -- [inaudible] and. we'll ask whether how it can be achieved over the next hour.
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[inaudible] [inaudible] >> translator: i'm going to divide the one hour in to three parts. first we're going to talk about whether the vision could be achieved. what our major challenge and the reasons and the second part will be reform. and so i want to discuss about the priorities of reform that is how to set the reform lastly welcome to talk about the government. we have to talk about the role of the government and also what is the expectations of our -- on the new administration and also ten to fifteen minutes for the audience. let me introduce the five distinguished guests starting from the mr.. li jingtian is the central vice
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president. [inaudible] sitting to the right is anded be him is [inaudible] who is household well nobody economist in china. and to his famous for the words. and he's also working at a professor for business school and i'm going introduce ceo of -- [inaudible] who is an economist because ten years ago he is the chief economist and he has had a very famous debate -- [inaudible]
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>> translator: so the answer is both yes and no. the reason for yes is that we all know all of the numbers provided by china we could get the numbers we want as always. no problem at all. if we say no, difficult, okay. that's it. what about -- [inaudible] i think there is no problem of achieving that goal. for the past thirty years, you have encountered greater difficulties. the income is 7% of annual growth.
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[inaudible] raising the goal cancellation easy to achieve goal. so, please. >> yes, we believe it's possible and more interestingly we believe that if you look at the young chinese child born in 2010, they will consume 40 times more than their grandparents born in 1960 over their lifetime. it's a remarkable growth. >> i agree, yes. but difficult to achieve. i don't think it's going easy. >> okay. >> translator: okay. our five panelists have contributed. are you confidence in achieving the goal?
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[inaudible] who do the calculations in the airgt years. if we could achieve two dpircht -- [inaudible] and income -- [inaudible] just as president pointed out 7 percent year after year. we could achieve the goal. why is it difficult to achieve? that is taking in to consideration of the international economic environment which is also for china. for china itself. it is faced ways to pressure and the difficulty of the reform and also development especially how could we drive to the consumption? all of these needs china -- chinese government to really find a solution but -- [inaudible]
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hue dueled we find a solution how could we use the pressures? maybe what is -- ierm confidence because of two reasons. no. 2 urbanization. we still have a lot of -- [inaudible] we could grow by 20% in the past thirty years. 1% per year. but in twenty years we think is not a problem; however, it could not be easily done because there are many questions to be solved. chinese urbanization should be more than -- we need to talk about the during the transitional process of -- [inaudible]
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welcoming cities how could the fez pants and households turn themselves in to developing the cities. and how to find a wide model. how to find a solutions to -- how could we connect with it actual industries. there is still a long journey to go. the second about consumption. right now it's 35%. which is below the world average of 60%. u.s. consumption rate around 70%. huge gap. if we want to really have consumption contribute more to the growth we need to -- such as disparity and income level, social security system, then we have to lead have different level of reform [inaudible] measure of urbanization and the driving to the consumption.
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which for the topic two foreign guests. i -- to talk about how to drive internal consumption and robert, contribute on social security in china. during urbanization. how people can turn themselves in to city dwellers can contribute. no listen, please. >> the opportunity to continue to urbanize we believe can have 200 billion people moving in to urban center over the next eight to ten years. that's an enormous opportunity. consumption is low, and particular chinese consumers don't spend at the let of other countries. the opportunity is around providing the security, a safety net that will encourage people to want to spend more. in termses of health in terms of living situation, in termses of retirement support for
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themselves and for their families. and we believe if those elements are put in place over time, it will unlock consumer spent which will provide an support to continued to grow the economy at the substantial rate. >> okay. professor? >> i think the challenge is chinese ships from being export driven and getting the dynamism and the productivity increase from the export sector to the consumption driven sector is not an easy challenge. as long as you're driven by exports you compete in the world market. if you're not making good products, you lose. as you turn inward, then political considerations everywhere, not just china become difficult. it's not an easy transition. you can write the numbers and say there are lot of consumers. it's not that easy. we can talk about financial deregulation. giving consumers more money. there's a potential for urbanization but there are many
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issues about how to move so many to the cities were familiar with the two-class system. if you look at countries like brazil, india. they have a lot of problems when they urbanize at that speed. >> translator: this is my question. when we talk about urbanization. we talk about it's an important gross driver. we're talking about the land of urbanization and we're talking about urbanization with people. then it's the letter the biggest challenge will be social security -- of china. right now in china people having very high expectations for social security. but trying to really offer the high quality security and how can we make it equal and suspendible social security, professor, according to your study, other countries -- [inaudible] >>, i mean, the obvious thing to
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say the expectations start rising very fast once you start giving them something and once the output how much you get becomes more politically termed and less by how much you work in the market. it becomes much less easy to manage. so there are many problems china has in common. there are others, for example, the fact that many parents have only one child to take care of them in their old age. it creates a lot of issues. i don't say there are unmanageable problems, it's not easy. >> translator: so what about -- [inaudible] it's your turn. [inaudible] i think it's a difficult goal to be achieved. why? because we talk about the drivers. some of the growth of china's economy think about the command side. i don't think the demand side is the desize i have part.
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the suppliers side the process chinese reform. the highest economic growth is not because of the fast growth of the demand side but on the suppliers side. so should we increase the supply? no. actually when we talk about urbanization. we talk about the, you know, how people in the cities spare more than the people in the areas and talk about infrastructure investment trillions of dollars being invested. they are all wrong concepts. the reason that -- [inaudible] is difficult because of the efficiency and improvement offered the supplier side is the margin is getting smaller and smaller. the -- distribution is the opposite of the first of the china's reform. in the first twenty years of reform. [inaudible] we transfer the resources of the
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state owned sector to the private sector the resources will flow from the low efficiency sector the high efficiency part. [inaudible] it's being created. then the people's income could be created. so i'm talking about the key is the suppliers side. if the result is possible of the income of the people. how could they spend more if we can't achieve the goal. we have to consider people's income. how can we increase the income and what is the source for it that mastered the economy on the production side. [inaudible] the distribution of the income is more than efficient for the government for the state of the companies but not for the -- [inaudible]
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we have statisticking shows that. the proportion of the income against the -- [inaudible] is actually getting lower and lower. how can we really, you know, analyze it? distribution of income how could we make measure adjustment that is very difficult? should you touch the cheese of the government income? should you touch of the -- of state owned companies? if the government and enterprises are lion's share of the income, then could not have a higher income. how could they spend more? what money could they spend? my impression about -- [inaudible] improvement. i believe gdp 7% growth rate. it's a quantitative concept.
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i remember not long ago the vice prime minister talked about about the thirty years growth rate of china for being 10%; however, only enjoying a bonus provided by a china lo cost labor cost. we are talking about quantity. we need to concentrate on the qualititive part. there's another question about the absolute amount of the labor supply in china is actually decreeing and have already happened in china. yes, as we talk about the 20/20 vision. everyone is talking about the major challenges of china. one is the labor supply. maybe -- [inaudible] what is your about the challenges of china for the
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reform? about the reform challenges? has been already bound in the past years. now there's a difficult areas that china has not yet passed. which are difficult areas have not yet been done. for example. [inaudible] many, actually. in a past thirty years. we have actually new conflict. the new conflict sure to be resolved by our reform. the next step of reform of china, in my opinion, should be focused on the overall planning. there are many issues to be solved by trial, by, you know,
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crossing the river, by selling the stone. as the chinese old saying. there are risks involved. you will sink in the river, so there are still many issues needing to be resolved. thank you very much. [inaudible] anything you want to add? >> yes, it's important to recognize that much of the advantage of chinese companies to date were built on lower cost. there's enormous productivity opportunity that can be unleashed familiarly with the focus on innovation, focus on becoming more globally competitive and the underlying demand in china is very strong. we visited consumers in their homes as a part of their research. we found that consumers building homes with garages and with electronic call outlets for air conditioners who didn't yet own cars or air conditioners. that speaks to the ambition and the sense of opportunity that is
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in the chinese consumers. but it is very true that to continue this growth improving productivity, and creating the underlying foundation not just around cost but innovation, new offerings to consumers, stronger service sector will be important elements as well. okay. >> i would say that getting productivity increases in the service sector, which is going become a bigger part of china's economy is harder than getting productivity increases in manufacturing. every economy experienced this. if you expand the social safety net providing services, health care. this is very hard. it's not that it can't be done better. ..
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so this is what we want to focus on. the first person to speak is to bridge lesser. we've been talking about large companies. some of these are ranking among the world top. we were worried about getting to the top 500, now we are not. some of these large come in the summer and are, but there are too many good companies, so we want to know come how to get good companies out of china?
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>> what's been greeted in a shirt. time to build these companies, but you're right, there's important challenges ahead to that the next of capabilities and to quickly site for, investing and r&d and capabilities and stronger talents and investing heavily to the leadership capabilities that have the flexibility to adapt to rapidly changing world. the ability to strengthen management teams had to have been the worst strategic and deciding where to invest and which sectors to pursue and how to pursue them. finally, the ability to globalize, to add capabilities for mergers and acquisitions into not just acquire come in these and bring what the chinese company already does, but to learn from the companies that are purchased and improve the organization of the elements that underpin the next stage of growth and success. there are terrific examples.
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if you look at my great, it's one of world leaders. together they build a stronger company than either had. if you look at successes of our way or another, you see companies that have been able to invest in r&d, put a premium on innovation and continue to build. [speaking chinese] >> translator: thank you. you talked about companies. i'm just wondering, apart from companies, what else can chinese companies do? with the environment we are operating in? whether we needed in order to innovate, mr. xiaonian, please. [speaking chinese] >> translator: you were talking about reform. i don't think what happens next or how to do it. in fact, we know how. we've been doing this for
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decades. this is an issue of determination, political will now. we now talk more, doing nothing at all. this is all empty talk. how long is this going to last? i think the priority is not to sequence every form. so what are the tasks we need? you say we are talking only, but we are doing some thing. what is that we haven't been doing? what should we do? >> the state sector needs to shrink in the last two years. the state sector is expanding. this is the opposite of the direction we know is there low efficiency.
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resources moved from a highly efficient private sector to deliver efficient the state senator, sophie talk about reform, the state sector needs to continue to be shrunk, like the beginning of the reform. we need to be serious about shrinking the state dirt cummock are in the air. talking about reforming taxation and fiscal policies. the government needs to reduce its proportion of the national income. in the last 13 years, he continues to go up and the teams to nearly 30%. so this is a another example of state sector overtaking the private sector. the government to limit the market should be doing. i'm sure there are many things you can talk about. what are the key tasks? i'm just looking at what i need to do.
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i run the company. first internally, we need to reform and how to do this in the context of the external environment. internally of course, our structure, operation can rate guarantee in any time in any circumstances further pretense or bad times, we follow the same principles, so basically are you talking about being able to maintain steady operation. also, can all the companies, a respect is that the ownership be allocating resources fairly. everybody has a level playing field. are you stay down?
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>> translator: no, no, we are not state owned. we are not state all private. we are in between. [speaking chinese] >> translator: this is a shareholding company, so companies irrespective of ownership need to be competing on a level playing field, they merging bank, but not a state owned company. perhaps you can talk about what tasks we face. international concern about the policy in china. can you talk about it? [speaking chinese] >> translator: xiaonian said this is an issue of determination. that i agree. after he 30 years, do we
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continue? it really is a question of determination. the 18th party congress declared clearly to the world that we wanted to continue. i wrote a paragraph into the charter of the company's party, making it very clear the communist party wanted to continue with reform and opening up to the rest of the world and that means globalization. this is where we are now development of countries in the world cannot be done on its own. the development are increasingly linked to to the risk of the world and to develop dense of our national companies and therefore, we need to be more open and do more.
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thank you. [speaking chinese] >> translator: shannon lee said it's official. why do you raise documents now? transcode the reality is lack of it. so the governments of policy credibility as a serious problem lack of credibility. i can't just listen to today say. and each of the care what they do. companies need level playing field. they have that right. to compete. not you. i said this is not the case. clearly, there's bias towards
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the companies, said the market only sees state-owned companies. that's when your firm is crucial. economic reform is not enough. it needs to be independent to protect. without it, pay that much rigorously thinking about moving out of china all the time. who wants to stay in china. in 10 years we've not done anything. this is it.we are historically. if we don't do it, we have a hard time. [speaking chinese] >> translator: jingtian talk about date of reform. roberts, reform has been declared as eagerness, so what will it take for us to say, in fact words meet deeds? there are so many things to do.
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>> there have been important reforms, so just in the last year, the financial reform has moved along. there's been interest liberalization. the government plays a huge role through keeping the receivers to get down low and the london through state inks. this is a huge footprint not measured in official statistics and there was movement. there needs to be more of movement. i agree strongly about the property rights issue. it is one thing to adapt from the rest of the world. it's something to take other peoples technology, but to become a leader in technology come you have to protect property rights. they has to be a clear property rights. i would finally add a very important challenge that would need to be tackled sooner rather than later is the dual
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citizenship, two types of citizens in the 50s, where we sent half that in the cities. maybe a third of men come as something like that don't you still rights that other citizens get in the city. how do you continue this organization? this is not an easy problem and again point to countries like india and brazil, which have huge problems, we cities got overrun and became a successful are coming back now. so these are important things that need to be done. [speaking chinese] >> translator: well, professor rogoff talked about reform. there is a major movement. there is more movement towards a market economy, this is continuing. of course the financial reform needs to do a lot more. i just like to ask about this. given that the western financial markets are having difficulties
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and channel the financial market is not internationalized yet, so what is the what is the next that china needs to take in terms of financial reform? >> translator: where we are with now are the difficult ones. interest committee regulation is one of them. even if you look at the united states, after she regulation, hundreds of banks, and therefore in china, this becomes a major issue because before reform, everybody was making money. after reform, to be stomach money? to be all survive? that is a big question. to resolve this, we need that her management of banks. if you want them to survive,
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when interests are floating, then the interest was shocked by your profit margin issue not, too. chinese banks need to make money although there has been a financial crisis, but we still made money. this is not right. you are not drowning. that's not a great ability, is it? if you survive there, you're capable. therefore we are just lucky to escape the impact of the crisis, like salmon in the swimming pool. which you agree, jingtian? >> translator: financial reform, professor rogoff talked about deregulation. that was just one step, a technical step, too. financial reform in china is to
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refer murky century. currently, the entries very tightly controlled that the government. i don't think it's necessary. they are still battling with their financials because small to medium-sized institutions are having difficulty in the market. they can't operate. that control needs to be relaxed urgently. secondly, if you open the market, there will be competition. if it's unfair complication for big banks, if you include a merchant bank and another one, these banks have an advantage way about the commercial banks. they can't compete with these top six.
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they create a level playing field, but we need to reduce the shareholding of the government in the financial sector. fortune and fiscal stimulus but we don't have figures. in fact, a lot of that was just loans from banks. ones that leave of stimulus was over, we are left with a lot of bad loans and banks. we don't even have figures of loans. and that is because in response to financial crisis, the chinese government was again using banks of policy tools. failing to recognize the fact
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these are independent commercial institutions, they need to think about risk. they need to go for-profit. the government pressurized the banks to land. the future was i doubt that lurch cash injection that we have in the year 2000 but have to be repeated. perhaps he can talk about all of your experience here. in the e.u., what are the lessons we need to learn in the financial sector. we are not yet offered at the depths of the financial markets. what are the lessons in china? >> well, certainly many examples of the liberalization that is not an easy thing to do and it often comes later in the stage of development when things have gone well and you're looking for other sources of growth and we can look at that america.
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we can look of course most recently at the united states and europe. but i think china is nowhere near being at risk of having overt overlays. and people are optimistic they would redistribute money to consumers and provide part of this engine of growth and also challenge money more efficiently. during the crisis is hard to second-guess what china did because china did okay, but i agree i don't think you want to try that very often. it's getting to the end of the road in these big state banks, making months for the dixie companies. are not going to get energy out of that. >> just to build on that, it is part of the new leadership agenda, but can both find ways to narrow the spread interest
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and provide more direct access and chinese companies and we will both enable more private companies and we will seem a return on investment and the conjunction growth attacked about earlier. it's an important janet adkins any democrat in the years ahead. 79 >> translator: mr. ma, would you like to add to financial reform? >> translator: or has any major change, for example, for small companies. we shun away from them, but now all banks are working on small companies. it's not a question of answering the government. i think it is driven by their capital needs here for example they are not worried about, but
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small companies, banks make better money from monday's small companies. that is, we think them into small companies is getting better, is in a? >> translator: that session was about the tasks of reform. i think there is much to do. at the end of the day, we need to review the role of the government so our debate is the role of the government and how do we redefine that role? and our expectation of the new leadership. but that's pressingly to start. 79 >> translator: people's expectation, we are seeing something new. so what about how do you think
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about the new government leaders. how could they really deepen the reform. and with the public. >> they should be set up after the 18th party congress. precedential communist party is actually having a higher credibility, better reputation, just as madam hu regulated. when he was addressing the media, he put at achieving people pic tatian, which has gained support in charge and the
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party members to talk about the communist party and the government goals is always in alignment, with the previous administration goals. yes, we do see a lot of changes have been. how come he summarized the changes? my opinion is the new leaders will pay attention to a more rational, or size these development model. they will pay more attention to the public opinion, to the likelihood of the chinese people. the new leaders will pay more attention and focus on reform and opening up by reforming the new leaders trying to eliminate the hurdles and finance the development of china. it's going to pay more attention
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grew by law. they pay attention to the growth pattern of the economy. you've all think the new leaders is more problematic in their approach. i believe after the 18th party congress, our government will lead the chinese people to achieve a fairly well-off country and to fill the chinese dream. presently, the rule by law and a fairly well-off society goal, how could it be achieved and what's your busy banker? [speaking chinese]
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>> translator: i think that's the basic benchmark when we talk about rule by law. that is something fundamental. as president of li mentioned, if we want to deepen both the most emerging task is actually how to reform the government business process from governments approval system to one right now. another sought kinds of things need to be approved by the government. i think they should be reformed. we have already mentioned that the market should be the fundamental role in the economy. that has already been mentioned for a long time, but in the recent few years, and this voice is being weekend. you know, actually for any
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financial crisis happened in the world, it's the government who interfered. it's the a government too gives out the money. so people think abnormal background governments should have the responsibility. so this is very easy to be made misunderstanding. it seems that the government approval should be further strengthened. if they play a more important role, so professor rogoff promotes your opinion about the government role and a market economy? this is a worldwide issue that governments are getting more and more powerful in the economy. it is said see the weakening of the government's role. what's your opinion?
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>> i think what president ma said that the government placed a bigger hand. this institutional reforms that could be made. for example, some movement to shift revenues to the provinces and away from the signer. they are less dependent on their power is government to get money that they have a more rational source of revenue that lead to having less government rules unless government regulations. it's certainly true that around the world, governments have grown inexorably bigger because it gets more expensive to provide services and define competitive ways to do that. it's not a fine line between where is the government and wears a private care? the government can hinder for the u.s. postal service. that's private, but everything they charge a set by the government.
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were they deliver separate the government. that's extreme, but if they continue in between the private, government were in china is pretty clear the action of growth has been towards having the government have a smaller role, not a larger one. [speaking chinese] >> translator: if we look ahead, there's three critical challenges china will face. when he shifted the balance from invest in infrastructure to supporting its citizens and consumer protections and things that will cause consumption to grow. second, the traitor tune invested in supporting the state owned enterprises versus creating a level playing field goal support entrepreneurs, small and medium enterprises, large companies to succeed and 30 seeking on the sustainability challenge. the urbanization will create challenges in terms of pollution as we've seen recently in infrastructure required to support it. in each case, the plan put
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forward by the 18 party congress takes it on a bit sordid path that pushes towards reform and moving in the direction and support the strengthening consumption, supporting a level playing field and the rule of law. but when others have treat us to go from what is on paper to reality and the challenge in the years ahead is to make that a reality. [speaking chinese] >> translator: there was one more question. there's so many requirements to fulfill. you may have heard there's still one question to be clarified. okay, the government is the player for reform. the government is actually to be farmed by itself. if after major surgery to be done. so my question is that how could government do by itself?
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transcode this actually happened in the past in our process of reform. in 1878, mr. xiaoping made the decision for china to embark on the road of reform at that time. you know, that's something china has to do, which is indispensable and strong leadership. you know, that makes this thing about the culture of evolution. it is really push china to the verge of collapsing. so at that time, but now life is much better for china. it's difficult for the government to really make the decision to reform. the government really has the political will to reform, the government then has to understand this reform is
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greatly different from the past reforms of china. it has to have the involvement of the chinese people. the ruling party has to involve all the chinese people into the debate of chinese reform. we can't only depend on the ruling party to actually really make great strides to break the stakeholders landscape. it has to provide on the public, on chinese people at the government really want to reform. nonetheless, we have to give freedom to the press, to the media. that's the most direct channel for the people is first to get through. you can't regulate the media. you have to gradually deregulate the media. only by doing that, i am convinced that this ruling party
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is very serious about the reform. otherwise, it's just lip service. it has been lip service for many years. even after his party congress, the 60s, 70s, were always confident. i haven't experienced a lot of things. >> translator: please stop talking, do something. it is different from the craze says. we have to have a sense of crisis not right now. i have to ask, you know, president li jingtian, is there any crisis of the government to reform? [speaking chinese] >> translator: of course there is. the 18th party congress has started very clear that the chinese communist party is
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persistent and deepening the reform. of course it's based on a very thorough analysis of both internal and external environment. something has to be done. one thing i totally agree, that we have to involve the people in the process of reform, talking about the political system of china is ruled by the chinese communist party and the people is the major party. then it's supported by the system. chinese reform is the improvement period and from attack about socialism, of course it will need to party to mobilize the people to raise all
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kinds of devices and opinions and then transform the opinions and in faith is into actionable items of reform formalized by law. so, president li, you also agree public participation is very feature, so very important single. we would like to leave the rest of the time to the live audience here. so now it's your turn to question. that was a live broadcast or program, so we hope those people who like to raise questions, to underwrite, one, one on the last. please identify yourself before
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you raise the question and address your question to the person you want to respond to the question. the >> edythe edith latourette from the associated press. i'd like to ask the other panel members have realistic they think it is to see what real freedom of expression in the next few years? i'd certainly like to ask mr. li and mr. ma. and if my american colleagues would like to chime in, that's fine. [speaking chinese] gloss black >> translator: president li, go ahead. [speaking chinese] >> translator: guarantee their
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freedom as media of the prius. this is the common goal of the administration's other countries in the world and this is an issue remaining to be solved. chinese communist party is the ruling party. of course there are other parties involved. so we need to make -- we need to minimize our mistakes. we need to be civilized by different parties, including civilization from the people, from the other parties, from inside the company, including the media. you may have already seen the social media is actually strengthening chinese officials. this is a very good thing actually. anything to ask president ma.
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[speaking chinese] transcode yes, my feeling for the recent years is we have new media coming up. the new media, either for the government, including their supervision. the bank insect is really getting more and more powerful and stronger. so this makes me a little, you know, under pressure. we have to improve our quality of service. real estate media opinion very seriously, easy to improve ourselves. sometimes we are wrong, you know, but of course we need to have communication with the media to get understanding. >> is hard to imagine the evolution of the united states
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are many other countries without the rule of the media of fighting corruption. it plays absolutely an essential role and the fear of immediate and how it will fight corruption. i'd also say coming from the university, having free communication, really free communication among academics is essential. it's hard to have a heavy hand over the antennae and still have a very high level of research and be at the top level. i think actually you cannot compete at the top level without a pretty free internet. [speaking chinese] >> translator: thank you. any other questions? >> from the china institute. a question for mr. lee. party school is instrumental in
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training, developing chinese leaders. as you see to many generations students coming into the party school, do you see any differences? d.c. the newer generation of students into the party school more daring in their desire and their ideas in pushing for political reform? [speaking chinese] >> translator: president, lee come a question for you again. i would like to introduce the party school to you so you could have a balance starting and this is the so-called demystified party school of china. >> translator: the chinese communist party school is the training institution of highest
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educational institution for the top party leaders. at the same time, also serves as a research institute and think tank for philosophies and social science-based. the time has come to establish in 1933 and going to celebrate the 80th birthday paired for the past 80 years, the chinese communist party at the local levels have trained a lot of qualified leaders. talking about the leaders of the student, the changes have been from one to another. i really have a lot to say. at the beginning of chinese reform, that generation, come to
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the school for wet? for basic knowledge, for academic improvement. for example, because for those people if they haven't got the opportunity to receive 10 years of blanket. you may have read newspaper. several years ago the party school i was training class for the new leaders and 80% of spam are having postgraduate degrees. so now there's better background, talking about the latest generation and they are more capable of dealing with complicated issues i have to say
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are meant to be solved. radically they are very good, that they need to grasp the actual experiences of dealing with complicated issues. the priority of training is to really race them about chinese communist party, socialism as well as really to expose them to more international view point. any other questions? we still have some minute left. more questions. >> samuel from the times. i wanted to ask about the chinese financial system and to what degree you think there is a
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crisis that is maybe amassed by government support and how you would get out of that and reform the system. [inaudible] >> yes, whoever wants to answer. the [speaking chinese] >> translator: after 30 years of reform in china, i believe government regulation of the financial industry is really different from the past. of course, finance or any country are certain levels of regulation. so there is compliance requirements for the financial services to two shins. for example, market access can the market is sent indeed. the common practice, especially for those banks who actually
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observed sapiens and deposit and besides that, the banks are free to develop a sound around this as strategies. even from the major companies, for example, the financial crisis has originate from the west and we have learned the lessons. so i regulation -- [inaudible] talking about an inch about financial regulation of china, i think it's getting more and more into the ssi. i've talked with a lot of chinese fsis for those first nine businesspeople of chinese they always complain to me. the chinese government is actually regulating them to match. there's some business issues that have to be approved by the
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government. if the insurance company, whatever, how could you really entice them to develop the industry. the government sand is everywhere. you know, of course i am not coming you know, talking about china's bank. so a lot of times economists talk about the chinese cdc. you have made some detailed level to establish, you know, chinese or public bank. [speaking chinese] >> translator: not just that. they require all banks to operate exactly the same way. and simply not possible, is it? they want one size to fit all.
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mr. professor. >> it's clear the financial system has a very heavy hand from the government. it's a big part of the government. the type of a crisis. it's an evolution of the transition to being more market oriented to reduce the redistribution that takes place in the financial system. the huge taxation on individuals who can't hold a higher return assets for fast-growing economy and obvious a lot of directed lending. the financial system i think is one of the two big issues that i hope the new government have continues to tackle, the other being reforms needed in urbanization. >> in the regulatory environment goes hand-in-hand with strengthening the institution so there's not crisis today, but the desire to open up to access capital with strengthening
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themselves. >> i have to stop here. i'm afraid we're out of time. i want to thank our panelists. mr. trant read, mr. hu and mr. ma. [applause] to read that audience, thank you for your attention and tour audience. i hope you really enjoy the program. from caisin debate, it is by for now.
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>> ranking member lisa murkowski yesterday released or blueprint of energy policy proposals for congress, which includes your take national weather for a few just as approval the keystone pipeline. her 115 page report titled energy 20/20 has more than 200 recommendations. this briefing is 40 minutes. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> and the only one up here and
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i don't have any charts. but i have the book. the book that you have been waiting for, we been talking about it for a year now. thanks for the opportunity to talk a little bit about what we have been dealing on the energy committee and the republican side for the past year in and out further really focus on where we've had with energy policy and really how they move forward in a way that is not kind of the same old same old, but reimagining, refocusing where we should be, could be has been an important opportunity for us to present considered us into this proposal. which you have in front of you is better than airplane reading. there are concrete proposals and then. they are some suggestions in this energy 20/20 document that
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people will look at and argue and say well, that's one persons view. that is true. but what we're trying to do you does not give you a legislative packet starting with initiatives that were going to click off as they move forward. but this is really designed to be a discussion blueprint. we want to try to change the conversation. one of the reasons we need to think about changing the conversation is because the energy paradigm has really shifted. you think about where we were just a decade ago. i was all about the scarcity, shortages, how much dependent we were on foreign sources for our oil. it is looking at the need to import lng. password where we are today and those once thought as export or
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import terminals are now looking to be export terminals. we have made considerable gains in terms of our own energy and to the point where it's no longer just a slogan that were talking about. so we need to think about what it means to go from an energy discussion and focus on scarcity to one that's focused on relative abundance and what that means for us as a nation. i started up my comments this morning. i gave an address to naruc and in it i distilled it pretty simply. it started out with the proposition that energy is good. energy is good and i think any of you who watched the super bowl last night that energy is not only good, it's necessary. whether it's keeping the lights on so they can enjoy the game or whether it's keeping the lights on so we can work, this is
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essential to who we are as a prosperous nation. and when you look at this cover, there is a reason for the cover here. when you look at what the lights are around the world, these are prosperous nations where the lights are on. for the lights are off in ugly and parts of china and unfortunately in my state of alaska. this is not such a prosperous area, so how we utilize this basic premise for serving this basic premise of energy is good and move from there it's part of how we want to launch this discussion. and contained in this again are five pretty simple proposition that we need to move to an energy policy that is abundant,
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that is affordable, that is clean, diverse and secure. and when you do get energy in that context, it really does help give you some parameters and guidelines as to how to move forward. so as you go through this proposal, it can come to think about it in the context of which i'm offering it. not legislation. the first question is okay, so when are we going to see the first bill here? you're going to see legislation move forward based on the conversations, based on the debate and the dialogue on some pretty meaty issues. so have we advanced revenue sharing to this state, whether it's how we put in place and export policy that is not only good for jobs, that helps consumers keeping prices low,
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while at the same time working with a balance of trade that is so incredibly important. what we are trying to establish here is a new direction and as we talk about the new direction, i'm going to anticipate one of your questions, which will be, how does climate change fit into your discussion and energy 20/20? it has to be part and parcel of what were talking about because as we see a change in our energy dynamic, there is also a very keen awareness of that energy production, energy consumption that demands attention to the environmental aspect as well. and so we don't shy away from it, but you will not see a cap-and-trade proposal in here. you will not see a situation
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that we need to impose a carbon tax because a carbon tax is designed to increase the cost. in my state of alaska, in a community that danny hoch, river community on the yukon river, they're paying $6.99 for their deeds are right now. that is how they are heating their home. so when you sit chestertown that the best thing for you to do is to increase the price, decrease consumption, i don't thought the temperature is this morning, but last week in the interior, the temperatures are ranging between 45 below and 55 below to pen a depending his thermometer you're looking at. i can't go back to alaska and tell people that the way we tackled this is to increase your prices, demanding you to use less and limit your choices.
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that is what assassination does. what a strong nation does this figure out how we can do that next stage, how we build out these to allergies, the screen technologies, diverse technologies that will allow us to do more and to do it in a clean way, to do it in environmentally responsible way. we sat energy costs, imposing a mandate, either heavy-handed ideas that are out there for reducing greenhouse gas emissions are not going to pass congress. we've already tried that once. so what we need to be doing as they move forward is through making efforts. i think we know that will try to take things in a direction that i would disagree with. but what we need to do is find those they would develop technologies to really allow us to have the greater our mental
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response ability. so we need to develop the resources that we have today. we do it domestically so we cut dependence on opec. they take a portion of that revenue and we specifically dedicated towards the energy solution of tomorrow. we talk about our energy to plan it timed and how that would build out and truly hope this advance. so that is kind of the framework. it is good reading. it's thoughtful reading and it's designed to advance a discussion on a critically important topic and i think last night is kind of watching the game at the same time doing my homework and focus on how we were going to do this rollout today. i really didn't have any idea
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when that came first started out for 34 minutes was going to help me tell the energy story and why we focus on energy as a prosperous nation. sign up kind of delay the game a little bit, but it was sure helpful from the perspective of letting americans know how important energy is in the daily world. so without any questions you might have the west can paint in it, what i can gain, where we go from here, happy to take your comments or questions. [inaudible] -- are you looking to replace a definition -- [inaudible] >> we're not looking to replace a clean definition.
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i think that's part of the problem that we haven't really defined clean. so it is said that to your own interpretation. we talk a lot about clean coal. i happen to believe that knowledges can deliver us clean coal, the son who are definitely opposed to cold say that there is such thing. so it is how we define and give definitions. bovee said in this document is let's not allow this to be a static definition, but more along a spectrum. is this type tashi, is this energy going to have less environmental and packed than the next energy source, the most likely energy source next to it. so how we allow for it to nation that we can somehow agree to a
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think is important because it hasn't really been in place. the clean energy standard you are referring to from senator bingaman was not an attempt to define clean necessarily in the sense that these generic descriptors that we're looking for in this energy policy of affordable abundant, clean, diverse and secure. >> on the climate change front, [inaudible] >> wow, i think there are some things that we share in common. i was a supporter of increasing the café standards.
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i think we've seen the benefits from that, but it's important to recognize that we have some initiatives and please that we can either build on, in hands, reforms, made better. a perfect example is the loan guarantees. one who believes there is a rule for the loan guarantee program, although i believe we must address it. i think we saw several problems. we need to look critically at the credit subsidy. i think we need to look at a chief risk officer. we need to consider how we have an early warning system inc., how we might allow for eligibility for more viable projects. these are things that need to be incorporated in my view any v-shaped loan guarantee program. but there are other areas where we can step forward and provide some financing opportunities,
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some puppet private partnership. i've been working with senator kearns on the massive limited partnership opportunities for renewable energy resources. at this point in time, they been limited to oil and gas. why can't we expand them? in the document, we also speak to applicability of reverse auctions. so one of the problems we face only try to develop these clean energy technologies, is just the cost. the cost to assess every turn. so if we can find those areas where there is a federal role, not just massive subsidies, not necessarily mandate coming down, but ways we can help facilitate the financing, then this makes sense to me. this is an area we should be
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going. the other area i mentioned earlier is i believe what we need is a renewable energy deployment find, something that comes to life, establish this through the vatican is speaking from increased domestic production of the fence of a portion of that to go into specifically to this energy technology fund. let's says something not so in fact we can move to it instead of saying well, what are we going to find the money? go out and talk to the proofreaders. tough times out there and i think we all recognize that. but we do have some opportunities not only with what is currently in place, but suggested. let's enhance it and let slip to other considerations that perhaps have not been in place.
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[inaudible] >> wow, one of the things the administration has proposed has been the elimination of any of these oil gas tax credit subsidy is better out there and they have done it in a very direct way, for its tax reform for the oil and gas industry, but nobody else. i don't think that's right. i don't think most would suggest that the only carveout, if you will come due in the area where we do tax reform designed to backs of the oil and gas industry. i don't did that make sense that we will report it. but what i will suggest he says we can do tax reform, which i believe is the congress we must do, i think the tax credits out
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there comes subsidies available for the oil and gas industry had to be on the table with everything else out there. so i think it's important to recognize that they are in the mix and that discussion is going on. but i don't think just a very targeted approach to one industry to say this is the real fantasies of evidence this week is a wise approach. [inaudible] >> well, what i have proposed in our 20/20 report is that there be a considered review of this. and in a letter that they sent out last week, i encourage a
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review of the export of u.s. policy in place right now. as you point out, if you are a non-fta country, essentially before they send fashion x releases can be approved, there has to be a best interest finding. i think it's fair to do a full on review of what we have established. having said that, i have been to the one that believes it is in the nations best interest to encourage greater export, most specifically our lng. i'm very cognizant the world looking to try to keep prices down and that's going to make key components is the affordability. so you want to make sure as a mystery skater expert feature nonimpact game the affordability
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piece. i think it is fair that they be considered review of this and i would expect nothing should be considered review. i will suggest this match, that as we are looking to those friends and allies who do not have free trade agreement, specifically japan as they have experienced a national energy crisis following the tsunami and earthquake in march of 2011 the leash of the critically to how we can help our friends out the export licenses. [inaudible] i was wondering, is there room for compromise -- [inaudible]
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>> is there room for compromise? i stand before you as a compromise here. yes, absolutely. what i want to leave folks with his real honest approach that i am taking surveys. and putting out a lot of ideas on the table. some of them may take off like rockets. others may be total dead. but that's not my criteria here. my criteria, what i'm trying to do is figure out how we get the finance and energy the furthest country at a time or energy policy is more than just a little rattled up. so if i can have a conversation
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with lawmakers about how we might as offshore opportunity and let's get into a conversation about revenue sharing, look at the direction senator weidner weidner and i heard he taking. when i first started this discussion, we want to find revenue sharing for those states that are host to oil and gas. we've gone beyond that. we're drafting a bill right now. not only clued offshore oil and gas, but any other energy resource that may come from offshore, whether as wind or ocean energy. let's share those who oppose states. and i talking about maybe even more we can do with revenue sharing on federal lands that hasn't been considered before. so we've opened the conversation
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very wide and i think that is an orton for us to acknowledge, that we are not lacking into one position, that we are not going to draw a line in the sand and say unless you take my first 10 ideas, i didn't want to talk to that energy. that's not where i'm coming on this one. it is how we start the conversation, how would the consensus for an energy we do works for republicans and democrats, those from rural areas, urban areas, how it works for us all. [inaudible] >> is kind of cute senator wyden over the course of many months.
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he knows we've been working on this for about a year. he was really excited to know that we were putting this level of staff time and personal time into israel's daddy of what's gone on in where we can go. and so, he has been given a little bit of the meat of it. he is going through this sum and total as well. my staff is said and done with his staff to get them some of the background in terms of where we had. i've met at the republican on the energy committee, told them where we are with this. i also wanted to know, we had published this report before i went to them, seeking their input because i wanted to make sure it wasn't completely
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missing the boat on an issue, something important to someone and we just overlook it. i will be honest with you and pick up something from senator barrasso. something that t. lam is not contained in here, but literally everything else we could have been incorporated one way, shape or form. so there was an effort to do reach out. i've made certain that every member on the energy committee has a copy as of this morning. this is not something i only want the republicans to read. i want my friends on the other side of the i/o to study as well, engage with me. let's talk about what we have in front of us and find out those areas where we can focus and put our shoulders behind it.
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[inaudible] >> glitzier energy here. [inaudible] i've got four more behind you. sorry about that. [inaudible] -- are there any you would support to specifically they were attacked about the foyer for many areas you never tried on before quiet >> you know, i don't think i have called for the full elimination of the advanced technology vehicles manufacturing programs. in the document, we say this is a program that is only seen the issue in the sidelines throughout the time of the program. it's just not working.
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it is to be technology neutral. let's get rid of it. trying to think if there's some others that would be kind of a guy's brand spanking new. so much of what is contained in that are things that i've said over the course of the four years been ranking them are on the energy committee now. and some of it i gas is just plain old common sense, but it's good to put it down as it reflects my position. [inaudible]
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[inaudible] >> in terms of the program itself, i think it is pretty clear winner was established that it wasn't in hindi to be something that was in place forever. and so, if something has demonstrated madd is and if it really is not an initiative that is technology neutral, why not shelve it? it's not that i have any kind of philosophical objection to new technologies for vehicles. i'm all over them. or should we decide that it going to be electric vehicles that are really going to be the chosen -- the chosen vehicle by the congress here, why not allow it to be more of a job all year in terms of what should move
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forward? is electric, natural gas, some other alternative? so once the kind, when we make that directive, i think of by definition then puts other technologies, if not on the house, perhaps not as on a competitive edge. so it makes sense. in terms of whether it had conversations with the bp debut committee about specifics within the proposal, i have not as of yet. [inaudible] [inaudible] >> well, first of all, i didn't ask members to join me because
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it's not like i'm going to call senator wide for senator cruise and say we be a cosponsor? there's nothing to cosponsor. i made clear as we it then i didn't want -- i didn't want to specific legislation in here. over purser joffrey had vertical minerals bill, which i hugely support. i thought if this is really a conversation starter, let's allow it to be just that. presenting predetermined commitment being preordained. there's no prescriptive legislation in the air. so what i wanted to do is make sure my colleagues knew what i was doing and they've certainly done that. but there'll come a time as we develop, as we see these discrete pieces of legislation that would be going to my colleagues and asking for
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specific support. i'm hoping they will take a look at this and they will be initiatives have a look at and say hey, at least it's coming from this perspective on this. i've got this idea. maybe we can build a bill together. i highly make things happen is the big question because a lot of that around here that never sees the light of day on the floor. and i would like to think that we are beyond that time when it comes to energy legislation. there is pent-up demand out there and part of it has been because we didn't have a lot of great things to the energy committee must pass congress for senator bingaman. but it just didn't move to the floor. how are we going to make that happen? they make that happen in a couple different ways. senator wyden and i have started off looking at these issues holistically and we agree to
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send things he's never going to come to my site on and some things are never going to come to his site on. the words that 80% of the middle is the chairman and ranking member, we can come together and with our committee have some good old-fashioned debate, have some amendment they may survive or fail. build a bipartisan bill out of the committee. get that momentum going. don't do it in a vacuum. but our colleagues on the house side note were doing. we pretty begun that reach out. we're going to continue that and then we've got to work with the majority leader to press the case for the need. you're not going to see, i don't believe, a comprehensive energy bill, like you saw in 05. what i do believe you will see her smaller initiatives that
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will advance and when advanced cumulatively, are going to make a difference, not only for energy policy, but for the economic security for environmental responsibility. i think you will see some positive, positive changes. but it's going to take some muscle quite honestly with the chairman ms office and ranking member to ensure these issues stay in the forefront. i don't want this report to be one where we have a press conference. members scattered, look at the cover, go to the one section that interests them, they close it and pass it off to a junior staffer and say that they know what think about this. and then it's done and over with. in order for us to do something, we've got to stick with it and i
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think we've got the ability to do just that. [inaudible] it seems like on the big picture, you need to get more revenue -- how do you get past that -- [inaudible] >> well, it is a big one. it's clearly a big one, but i also recognize that we don't have a lot of choices right now. this is energy here, but we have some deadlines in front of us from a fiscal perspective that if we don't get on top of quickly, we are going to see an impact to the economy that we're not going to like, the headline from last week about the slowing
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of our gdp. it is going to be a situation where it's no longer acceptable to kick the can. and so, when we talk about the need for tax reform and how weak at a price that philosophical divide, i am one that says, we have got to put it on the table. we've got to be willing to make some very difficult choices because our option, if we fail to act are not sent and that i think most in this country are going to be satisfied with. [inaudible]
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[inaudible] >> well, let me just start by saying that i am a firm believer that we can do more in this country when it comes to efficiency. it is one of the legs for the energy stool that is critical to us and is often overlooked. people are looking to the new fancy type knowledge he and the things that are making the news. somebody joked that if we could just figure out how to have a groundbreaking orb ribbon-cutting that involve some kind of energy efficiency come you get lawmakers much more interested in moving forward with that as an initiatives.
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energy efficiency is an opportunity that we can't pass that. i think were senator shaheen and portman went last year was a good start that they didn't get their full bill passed. it is just a soft portion of it. they have indicated to me that they are going to pursue that he can't and i have encouraged them. i want to work with them and greater energy efficiency. i went to work with colleagues on the house side as well. energy efficiency should not be sent pain is your just going to say, were going to see that went to a test on an area we need to go to. what more conservative principle is there a dirt inefficiency? so how we do it into a smart is going to be the case. we've got a lot more we can be doing there.
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>> i know you spoke already about climate issues, but can you speak more broadly whether there's a carbon economy going forward -- [inaudible] >> eberly would be an outgrowth of what it is we're proposing, they don't think it's happenstance. i don't just by accident. what ucsc utilize these technologies that allow you to move to a cleaner energy, as you use these technologies to allow for diversification, that brings you to these breakthroughs in how we produce and consume our energy, you do get to a lower carbon environment and i think that's a good thing. we are moving that way. look at the progress that has been made just in the past
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decade. and you know, some of it has been command and control. kathy clearly was. but think about what else has happened in. you have seen a shift to more renewables. you have seen a shift towards natural gas. in my state, you have seen a shift in the technologies that are allowing us to go after our fossil fuel is in a manner that it can is endless intensity than the other most likely alternatives. and so, we are reducing our emissions are not the way we should be going. you can go to take an approach that has been tried failed desktop and trade for a carbon tax that is designed by its very nature to increase prices at a
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time our economy does not need to see increased energy prices. that's not going to get us to a lower carbon economy. so i think my vision takes us they are and i don't do this by accident. but i think it's because our desire to be in a world that has more affordable, abundant at, clean, diverse and secure energy has taken us there. [inaudible] >> well, i think we need to be vigilant, if you will about how the administration moves forward
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on rulemaking that would lead to a policy by default when it comes to reducing emissions through the rulemaking and the regulatory process. we will keep an eye on it. i think we recognize the tools in the toolbox are relatively limited and i tried to resolution of disapproval. there have been a couple of different answers since that several years ago on the to a similar fate. my sense is that the administration is going to look at the lay of the land, look at the fact that we still are in economy that is recovering,
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realized that the attempts at command and control when it comes to climate failed in the past and i think they will attempt a more backdoor approach to get their desired results, so we're going to have to be on the alert, simple as that. we probably have time for one more. >> the report of the duo standard -- [inaudible] can you give more details on not? [inaudible] 's >> now, i don't use the word eliminate, but i do think it is time they do we need to look critically at. the word that i use in the text is to reform it. i think some of the unintended consequences that we are up against this one wall right now,
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where you have a requirement and an inability to meet the requirement. you don't have not necessarily the next phase, but you don't have a line between the policy and the ability to perform. i don't need to tell any of you about the distress and anxiety that we have over the food for fuel and the fact that when we are talking about corn-based ethanol being used for fuel, that puts pressure on the prices of corn and what that really means. so how we put in place policies that might look good, sound good, we need to make sure we're not going down a road of unintended days.
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and if we are, let's have the ability to pull back and say, maybe this thing just didn't work the way that we had hoped to. instead, everybody is so invested in it. i've set up my operations and a need to have this, even though it's not necessarily wise policy. so let's not be afraid to admit it we might need to reform it. it may need to revamp it make more technology mutual. so that's not saying we have failed, but it might be acknowledging that we didn't appreciate all of the consequences that might be attached to this. so i am one who says what's up with this critically and i think i am in good company asking for that critical